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[personal profile] stoneself: more about slash (but also about writing the other)
it's not that msm, the donor issue, or aids are left out in particular. it's that those few things typify so many other things that are left out. and too often those things left out leave a shallow stereotype driven image of gay men.

[ profile] executrix: [Warning: Privilege] Meta: don't look now
I've seen m/m writing by women described as harmful for "othering" or "exoticizing" gay men, but I think, on the contrary, it reflects a wish to understand how people who are dissimilar to the writer or reader think and feel and behave. There's no real way to tell if a slash writer is straight or not. Someone who has a male partner might have had female partners in the past, or will have them in the future, or desires them in the present but for one reason or another can't have a female partner. And a woman who has a female partner may sometimes desire a male partner, but can't or doesn't want to have one in practice. Someone who's female-bodied today could be a transman in some stage of transition, controlled as much by economic factors as social or personal ones--or, for that matter, a transwoman who had a lot of health insurance or a big bank account. When Adam delved and Eve span, who then was the other?

[ profile] grey_bard: We're here, we're queer AND YOU DON'T SPEAK FOR US.
The beneficent wonderful straight people are here to save us poor queers from those mean nasty slashers using us for their pervy othering desires. (And / or the wrong "kind" of slasher. The kind with fewer enlightened trappings of guilt. Hey look guys! It's our straight slasher savior!)
Everyone thank the straight people. Awww.
But oh! Wait!
Some of those mean nasty slashers, no wait, a LOT of those mean nasty slashers are queer too! HOLD THE PHONE!

[personal profile] stoneself: no really. your shit does stink.
the biggest problem w/ straight women writing m/m?
that it is mostly about objectifying and fetishizing an oppressed group for the benefit for a privileged group.
all those exceptions being listed for why m/m is ok? let's pretend i grant them.
that leaves a huge pile of crap that is dehumanizing gay men.
the mental gymnastics people are going through to justify m/m slash? whatever.

[personal profile] stoneself: small things & intersectionality & internalized oppression
gay men justifying some of the egregious sins of m/m? that's internalized oppression.
queer women justifying some of the egregious sins of m/m/? that's also internalized oppression. a different stripe, but it still is.
the worst part of the internalized oppression is when the straight women use it to justify their straight privilege wrt m/m.

[personal profile] lordhellebore: [Mod Team Note: Comment thread contains dismissing/derailing as well as some worthwhile discussion] Why male/male fiction written by women is problematic in the eyes of some people
Now, after reading and writing all these comments over in the respective posts, I can sympathise with both positions. I'm aware of the problems and am doing my best to not contribute too much, but I'm also very much for trying to keep fiction and reality apart, and I'd certainly never stop writing whatever I want.

[ profile] herongale: Warning: Privilege, dismissing, derailing. Slash and the appropriation/objectification of The Other
I am a woman who writes slash. I am neither gay nor straight, but something that is a little bit of both. And although I identify as a woman (and was born as one too), that doesn't mean I don't also have my own personal relationship withtranssexuality , to consider the possibilities of what I would be like if I had been born in a different body. When I write, I don't set out to subvert. Nor do I set out to appropriate anything. But I don't define myself simply as a woman. Most importantly, I define myself as me. And when I write, I want to write the things that appeal to me. Usually that means writing about gay men. Should I stop because some gay men don't approve? I don't know. Should gay men stop designing clothes for women? After all, a gay man who designs clothes for a body he will never have is not all that different from a woman who writes stories for a life she will never lead. So, should I stop?

[ profile] mothwing: Herongale, reality is reality and fiction is fiction
I want you, herongale, to ask yourself, "why am I writing slash? What does it do for me that other genres don't? Why do I find the tales of two men together more interesting than others? Why is itok for me to appropriate another person's experience for my own ends?"
And I want your readers to do the same.

[personal profile] cesperanza: Match the Meta!
[ profile] cesperanza: Match the Meta! [Same post, different comments]
My standard line in this argument is comprised of two words: drag queens. Which I expand thus: women (most women) understand that (some) gay men have created a really distinctive and important form of cultural expression, saying things they couldn't say otherwise, through the adoption of female avatars from popular culture. And it seems to me that gay men should understand that (some) women have created a different and yet equally important form of cultural expression, saying things they couldn't say otherwise, by adopting male avatars.

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