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amaresu: My response from Patricia C. Wrede (Warning: does not contain anything remotely resembling an apology.)

sanguinity: American Indian Contributions to the World: Buildings, Clothing, Art, Science, Tech (Final in the set.)

ilya1: Some comments on The Thirteenth Child

Acceptable Hypocrisy: Mammothfail 2009

School Library Journal Mobile: Review of the Day: Thirteenth Child by Patricia C. Wrede

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

keeva

Wow, that "Acceptable Hypocrisy" person just clearly does not like me or something. It's so sad that more people of color -- and white people fighting white supremacy (like me) -- don't react to racism in ways that are pleasing to whoever that person is.

(Yeah, I'm gonna make it all about me in this comment, cuz I got called out by name. But the whole latter half of that post, starting from her attack on Avalon's Willow, is a massive tone argument / concern troll post.)

From:

keeva

Annnnnd poking around her web site, this post on a transgender/genderfluid friend pretty much told me all I need to know about the type of person behind "Acceptable Hypocrisy."

Yuck.

From:

beyondthefringe

Okay. I am asking because I am honestly curious. I mean no harm. But yuck? Why yuck? What do you read in to that post that I, for example, do not? I saw someone trying to work through their feelings on a confusing matter involving mixed signals, and they even admit that maybe the problem is them. I expect I'd be confused also about how to deal with a friend who changed identities and nuances like that on a regular basis. So color me innocently, earnestly curious.

From:

keeva

What is your gender identity?

If you consider yourself non-cisgender, I may explain it to you.

If you're cis, though, I don't really want to educate you on your privilege today.

From:

beyondthefringe

I'm sorry.
I don't know what "cis" stands for.
Let me go look it up.
Ah.
I see.
Thank you for your reply.

From:

keeva

If you don't know the term "cisgender" then you are not even at Trans 101 level, and I'm not going to bother to dive into your privilege and ignorance.

Because, hey, a decent person might have seen that by me saying "yuck" I am saying "this is painful to me" -- and that I don't need some clueless fuck coming along and demanding I educate him/her(?) on demand when her/his privilege prevents him/her from seeing the privilege inherent not only in the other poster's comment about her friend, but also dripping from her/his "innocently, earnestly curious" bullshit response to me.

From:

beyondthefringe

Look, all I did was ask a question to try and understand something that wasn't readily apparent to me. You answered, I thanked you for the reply.

No need to get insulting. Privilege? Ignorance? Clueless fuck? Decent person? Bullshit response?

Back the fuck OFF. I'm sorry if something in my tone offended you, but that doesn't give you the right to start insulting and attacking me. So lay off already. Your pain does not give you the right to hurt me in response. I didn't do a damned thing to you except be polite.

From:

keeva

No, you back the fuck off. You don't get to "tone" me with your privileged bullshit and then walk away going "oh the poor mean trans person hurt me!"

You weren't fucking hurt. You were hurtful, and ignorant, and your request for me to educate you was pathetically stupid.

You do not get to say "I'm sorry if something in my tone offended you" which is a bullshit non-apology; you're not sorry, you're privileged and stupid.

And you were not polite. There is never anything "polite" about a privileged person demanding that an upset oppressed person educate them on demand.

I ain't your fucking Magical Teaching Tranny.

From:

elf

I am freezing this thread; this is not the place for this argument.

From:

elf

I am freezing this thread; this is not the place for this argument.

From:

jonquil

Two post-Wiscon posts:

The white male as unmarked: http://jonquil.livejournal.com/840895.html (Title is "Unmarked")
Safe space: http://jonquil.livejournal.com/841199.html (Title is "All Cretans are liars")

From:

keeva

A linkspam roundup of the massive fail at the Taking Back the Sci-fi panel at Wiscon would probably be warranted.

From:

holyschist

http://holyschist.dreamwidth.org/21475.html - Patricia C. Wrede answers

Not sure it adds a whole lot to the discussion, but hey, completeness.

From:

jonquil

Shadesong is eloquent about what went wrong in the "Take Back The Sci Fi" (rape) panel at WisCon. http://shadesong.livejournal.com/3880998.html (Title: "Take Back The Sci Fi")

hps_sterling gives her perspective: http://hps-sterling.livejournal.com/484384.html (title: "GenderFail at WisCon Panel")

Edited Date: 2009-05-27 07:04 pm (UTC)

From:

sanguinity

Oyate fund drive. They've been cited enough as a resource/antidote in the Mammothfail discussion, that it may be worth adding to the linkspam. (Assuming that there are any more Mammothfail linkspams.)

http://sanguinity.livejournal.com/495086.html