linkspam: Return of the Linkspam

elf (

elf) wrote in

linkspam,
@ 2009-05-22 11:10 pm UTC

Entry tags:

mammothfail, race

Return of the Linkspam

marrael: Late thoughts on MammothFAIL and looking in from afar

Kalafudra: On Race and Genre Fiction

Antariksh Yatra: Some Thoughts on Writing (or not writing) the Other

neo_prodigy: Discussion (FoC_U sexism tangent)

keeva: gads. the wankery leaves me speechless. (FoC_U sexism tangent)

patgreene: Wondering...

james_nicoll: Really stupid question (Tangential; potentially trollish. Also, privilege alert. But interesting discussion.)

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sami
2009-05-23 10:59 am UTC (link)

It's worth noting that in

james_nicoll's case, it's just about guaranteed not to be trolling, at least on his part; he likes to explore the ramifications of ideas, but I've never known him to troll.

I'm not sure how much privilege alert even applies. He's not saying cultural appropriation is good, he's just considering whether it's applicable, as a term, to the cultures of one's ancestors, if that culture is no longer practiced... which a lot of them aren't. Christianity crushed a lot of cultures out of existence. It is a valid question whether it's morally acceptable to make free with the the elements of past cultures, IMO.

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elf
2009-05-23 02:08 pm UTC (link)

Trollish, in the old-internet sense: "here's a topic I bet will stir up interesting activity, but I don't actually give a damn about what people think about it."

There's some fairly solid privileged bits in the comments ("Isn't F/SF a white person's genre and anyone else who uses it is practicing cultural appropriation?"), and there's a very... middle-class white male skew to the whole conversation.

Which I don't find bad, exactly, but people who aren't up for it should get a warning.

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	no subject james_davis_nicoll 2009-05-23 02:42 pm UTC (link)
	If you get a longish post called Full Disclosure and it's not signed, it's because I thought I was logged in and wasn't. I take exception to "but I don't actually give a damn about what people think about it." (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 4 comments) (Show 4 comments)

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elf
2009-05-23 04:58 pm UTC (link)

Hm. I gather that you do have an interest in what people think, but are not invested in any particular answer, and don't care if people think it is, or is not, possible to appropriate the cultures of their ancestors. Not that you're not interested in the discussion, but that you're not (particularly) interested in reaching any conclusions.

Hence, troll-ish (rather than direct trolling): "here's an interesting topic that touches on current controversies, and is skewed in a direction I think will get reactions from people." Which I don't mark as a bad thing, but many of the people involved in Mammothfail and the previous Racefail are not interested in abstract, hypothetical discussions about culture and race; they're rather caught up in real-world racism, real-world theft of their ancestors' objects & practices, real-world consequences of calling people on their privilege.

(Nobody is likely to lose her job for announcing that modern druids are inappropriately stealing ancient druidic practices--but saying that hippie "shamans" shouldn't sell dream catchers because those aren't part of their culture, can get one tagged as a "race kook" and quietly passed over at promotion time.)

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	no subject james_davis_nicoll 2009-05-23 07:41 pm UTC (link)
	sigh I just posted another anonymous reply thanks to my inability to notice when I am logged out. Deal with it as you see fit. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent) (Thread) (Hide 1 comment) (Show 1 comment)

	no subject james_davis_nicoll 2009-05-24 03:24 am UTC (link)
	Actually now that I've walked away from the computer and thought for a bit, I'd rather you just nuked both of them. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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piranha
2009-05-24 02:06 am UTC (link)

i think you're conflating "trollish" and "geekish". from long association (starting on usenet, so i am well familiar with old definitions of "troll") i know james to be the latter, but not the former.

however, his comment section deserves every warning, because he is widely read and commented on by people who're soaking in male white privilege.

i don't really think the post even belongs in this linkspam.

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james_davis_nicoll
2009-05-23 03:02 pm UTC (link)

"Isn't F/SF a white person's genre and anyone else who uses it is practicing cultural appropriation?"

When SF first became a genre a fairly large fraction of the authors involved in turning it into what it was were Jewish at a time when Jews were not counted as white so really the answer to that would be somewhere between "not exactly" and "obviously not".

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acrimonyastraea
2009-05-23 03:50 pm UTC (link)

What I find most headdesky about the post and comments is that, to use the popular metaphor, it's really a senior-level or graduate level question that appears to be aimed at folks who are in the 101 class. (And people who don't even have interest in the 101 class because they would rather lament about the loss to white Americans if we couldn't appropriate at will without regard to the consequences).

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	no subject softestbullet 2009-05-23 10:26 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, this. (Reply to this) (Thread from start) (Parent)

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cutlery
2009-05-23 10:11 pm UTC (link)

Christianity crushed a lot of cultures out of existence.

I think the right word would be religions, at least in Europe. Many cultures managed to keep their languages and folk traditions.

It is a valid question whether it's morally acceptable to make free with the the elements of past cultures, IMO.

Agreed. Unfortunately, some people out there don't.

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