linkspam | Your linkspam is your weakness

elf posting in

New linkspam, plus a handful of somewhat-older posts (i.e. more than 2 days). We welcome links being dropped here. And more link-scrounger people would be very welcome.

rosefox: "All right, all right! No need to spell it out!"

niamh_sage: Untitled: From the latest Linkspam roundup comes RaceFail: Author versus Audience, by Joseph Robert Lewis.

mamadar: On making art, not war

la_marquise_de_: For the record

anarchicq: Racefail and how it applies to my worlds.

johncwright: PC MUST DIE (Privilege alert; read with caution)

briansiano: You gotta be fucking kidding . (Short & pointless. Included because "archivist of the revolution" occasionally includes "archivist of the people who think the revolution is boring and pointless.")

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

rosefox

http://james-nicoll.livejournal.com/1799577.html

"Really stupid question: Is it possible to commit cultural appropriation against one's own ancestors?"

(James is fond of trolling his readers.)

From:

elf

Is it mammothfail-related?

Not that I mind the idea of general privilege-and-racism posts, esp. as the wrede-oriented conversation seems to be dying down, but if I start collecting those, I probably should tag them differently.

From:

rosefox

Define "related". Inspired by, certainly, but not in direct response to.

From:

softestbullet

Gaahh.

From:

rosefox

Most of the comments are actually quite thoughtful.

From:

softestbullet

Really? I'll take another look then. :)

From:

rosefox

His readers are used to being trolled, and it's sort of fun to refuse to rise to the bait.

From:

rosefox

http://marrael.livejournal.com/232828.html

"I know I'm late, but it wasn't that I wasn't paying attention. It's just that I couldn't see it as just a storm in the SF/F teacup, and I found that hard to talk about, then to post in public. A lot of people had a piece to say about MammothFAIL as SF/F fans. My piece about MammothFAIL is as a non-Caucasian non-American who sees MammothFAIL as a symptom of something larger and about more than race. To me it is also about media domination and ethnocentrism."

From:

lisaquestions

Thank you for the editorial on those last two links.

I do agree that PC must die, but when I say that, I mean that the use of political correctness as an accusation to discredit attempts to call out or identify oppressive behavior.

From:

ceri

Yes, elf, thank you very much for the warnings.

And yes, Lisa. I remember drifting from "Is 'PC' ever used in the service of causes I respect?" to "No, 'PC' is a reliable marker that the argument wrapped around with is immoral and probably dishonest."

From:

copracat

Oh, nice and very accurate way of putting it. When someone says 'PC' these days, I just want to stop listening to them. Thanks for a snappy comeback!

From:

ceri

You should give Lisa credit; either I picked it up from her or she goaded me into it. :)

From:

softestbullet

Yeah, basically.

Thirding the thanks! Holy crap, that post... it is beyond help.

From:

softestbullet

Also, sometimes, Microsoft computers!

From:

la_vie_noire

Yes, exactly. And seriously, I just love privileged people going, "but who cares about the oppressed?" Dear, God. I was on hiatus, and the idiots sprung from everywhere.

From:

piranha

yeah, thanks for the warnings! they really help.

some years ago i decided to simply write off anything said using "politically correct" as code for "i'm peeved that i can no longer insult those i consider inferior with impunity".

it's working real well. now and then i check, and really, nothing interesting ever happens once "PC" has been uttered; at best it's clueless, at worst it's hate speech (you know, this particular one is close to the latter).

From:

copracat

"Privilege alert" is somewhat bland a caution for the hate speech in that post's comments.

From:

elf

I'm sorry; you're right. I'm still sorting my way through this, trying to figure out what to warn for & how to phrase the warnings.

I hadn't carefully read the comments (had barely read the post, except to confirm it was (1)racefail related/inspired and (2) dripping with enough white male privilege that I couldn't figure out the point of the post, other than "OMG someone wants me to pay attention to something other than myself sometimes; that's gotta stop.")

Edited Date: 2009-05-22 02:33 pm (UTC)

From:

copracat

Oh bugger, no. I'm sorry. I edited my original comment down because I was well angry (at the OP and commenters) and it came out short. I didn't mean that as a criticism of you, or any of the comm volunteers. You're doing an amazing job and I fully appreciate how much work it involves. No-one should have to read that post or its comments.

Edited Date: 2009-05-22 03:03 pm (UTC)

From:

elf

I may have to post something that indicates that any warning could be a notification that said post is a blazing beacon of hatespew.

When I'm gathering links, I'm barely actually reading anything, just noting if something is related. And skimming over dozens of posts & comments, my privometer is probably broken... if I stop to think too much, or consider how I would reply, I'll never finish link-gathering. It's a very odd headspace.

Also, since I leave a notice at the posts I link to, I don't want the warning to be such that racist wankers would feel compelled to respond here, and declare how wrong I am in whatever assessment I've made. I'd prefer they kept their reactions in their own journals. (Insert warning of uncertain strength.)

From:

copracat

Wow. How much self importance do you have to have to read 'people who think the revolution is boring and pointless' and get the meaning 'denounced as a thought criminal'?

From:

elf

Aren't delusions of grandeur cute?

From:

copracat

Maybe the poster doesn't get linked to very often?

From:

lady_ganesh

I think just a disclaimer that you're not going to do anything more than warn is acceptable-- I think we'd be asking a lot to expect archivists to read all posts, monitor comments to see when things are getting out of hand, etc.

There's always 'douchebag alert,' though.

From:

elf

"Douchebag alert" requires more careful reading than I generally do. I don't sort out whether the posts are "loaded with privilege, but politely discussing topic" or "loaded with privilege and insulting anyone who brings that to their attention."

From:

lady_ganesh

Sorry, I was trying to crack a joke there, and failing.

From:

elf

No, you succeeded! I giggled.

But then I thought about trying to actually mark things "D.A.," and realized I'd have to put too much thought into it... have to decide where the line is between "mildly clueless" and "douchebag," which is often hard to tell in the first few comments to a post.

From:

lady_ganesh

My work was not in vain!

Yeah, I think you should keep things simple.

From:

keeva

LOL THOUGHT CRIMINAL

From:

elionwyr

I fail to understand what exactly you're trying to accomplish here.
For the record, however, Brian's not a racist, your description of him as a 'racist wanker' is slanderous, and if you're basing your opinion on something you're admitting to 'barely actually reading,' you may wish to reconsider how you're handling this nebulously goaled project.

From:

elf

Whether Brian "is" or "is not" a racist, is not something I'm going to pass judgment on. I wasn't calling him a "racist wanker;" I'm pointing out that such people exist, and at some point, I'll probably be linking to them, and when I do, I'd rather they didn't feel compelled to bring their racist wank here.

There is, included in that concept, the implied possibility that Brian is in that class, but it's certainly not a direct accusation.

Anyone who thinks he's being called a "thought criminal" for dismissing dozens of intense conversations as lacking perspective, could easily fall in the category of "wanker." Anyone who thinks there's no real racism going on because there's no active white supremicists involved, might be a racist--or at least someone who thinks that, except for a few wingnut fanatics, racism is over and there's no reason to discuss it anymore.

If he doesn't want people to think he's a racist wanker, he's certainly free to post something that indicates he understands and abhors racism, and he doesn't think other people's pain is a fun topic for mockery.

From:

elf

(The "barely actually reading?" Referred to a different post. Brian's post, being less than 30 words long, I read.)

From:

fifi

I think I'm going to take a break and just pretend certain things weren't said by certain people. I know. You can't hide the sun with yr hand, but I think I'm going to sit in the shade for a while.

Thank you for compiling these links for us, though. I don't know how you haven't had a conniption yet.

From:

elf

Don't have time to read when I'm gathering. I'm looking at keywords, not absorbing content. That, and looking at lots and lots of them snaps them into patterns, and I get to contemplate those instead of the actual words.

Have to fight the temptation to do thematic roundups... "here's 8 links to posts that don't think white privilege exists at all. Here's 10 that think discussing race in F/SF is stupid, because it's not about the real world. Here's six convoluted essays declaring that colorblindness will fix the world's racism if only everyone else would pretend everyone is white, like they do."

And I want to do the other side... "here's a double-handful of personal experiences that made me want to weep with joy. Here's five threads where you can see the light bulb turn on over someone's head. Here's twenty links to posts about how people are actually helping."

My head's all swirly with meta-thoughts; it nicely distracts from the potential flamewars I really shouldn't waste my time on.

From:

fifi

That is the best idea ever. Thematic lists. Wow. I love that.

It would make it so much easier to topple statements like these Well, it's a facet of my personality that when I break silence it's seldom to "yes" something someone else had said, but rather to say the thing no one else is saying. Often with the result of pissing a lot of people off. So I'm being consistent, at least.
Specially when they be spewing the same old same old same OLD bullshit.

From:

elf

Can't go look right now (work's erratic web filters), but that sounds... just precious.

Maybe I do need a thematic link set, so all those people who claim to be saying "the thing no one else is saying" can find out how banal they are.

From:

sanguinity

It would make me very happy to see thematic lists. There are many times that I click through and think, "I've seen this post, or one enough like it that I don't need to see this one." And if I do enough of that, I stop clicking and miss the ones that make my brain come out a different shape.

But I can also see that thematic lists brings in a whole new wad-o-problems for the archivists.

From:

elf

The biggest problem I'd have with thematic lists is finding the time to put them together.

Now I'm all dizzy with contemplating "bingo links"--a list of posts that each manage to hit a full bingo line of points.

From:

fifi

I understand. I've seen amazing thematic lists done for Fandoms and I always look at them in awe. What you could do is create a post with different titles on them, for example:

Attempt at derailing

Fallacy: Tone Argument

PoC: The Angry Pack

And then people comment in on the post with links and put the title in the subject space, to say where they think the link* should go. You can delete comments as you put up the links. I know it would take a LOT of time but it would maybe make the workload less? I don't know.

By the by, no need to look at the link since it's one I found from you guys. I was just sharing my frustration.

*wtf brain fart

Edited Date: 2009-05-22 11:21 pm (UTC)

From:

sanguinity

Note for myself: the warnings are there for a reason.

From:

softestbullet

Indeed. *still reeling*

From:

softestbullet

http://vandanasingh.wordpress.com/2009/05/22/some-thoughts-on-writing-or-not-writing-the-other/

This one is good.

From:

la_vie_noire

Privileged? Ah, no. They want "white supremacists" to show us who apparently really hates us.

Not pointless, just racist. Really, if I'm going to read every whitey racist idiot out there talking shit out of their privileged asses... well, I have a life.

(And anyway, you put a warning, so it's fair. I'm not complaining about you)

From:

rosefox

http://patgreene.livejournal.com/768131.html

"I have been thinking about the discussion of issues raised in Racefail 2.0 (or as I have seen it referred to, Mammothfail), which revolves around Patricia Wrede's young adult alternative history/fantasy The Thirteenth Child and its imagining of a North America with mammoths and magic but with no native peoples when white settlers arrive. And the potential pitfalls of alternative history in general."