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[personal profile] stoneself: as below, so above: where is the m/m debate going?
we msm, we pay a price for being who we are in a world full of straight privilege, homophobia, and heteronormativity. we are different from the norm, and that difference is part of who we are.
erasing that difference, it does harm us msm. it erases our experiences, our history, our identities. it diminishes us, and in light of how much msm have been killed, punished, persecuted, shoved in the closet for our difference - having that erased again isn't just adding insult to injury, it is another kind of injury.

[personal profile] melannen: Science, y'all
So: Are slashers straight?
I spent an afternoon and evening finding all of the polls & surveys of slash demographics I could that included a question on sexuality. Some I already had bookmarked, some I found through google, delicious, and following citations in academic papers. I'm sure there are more out there, and if you have links to more more polls I would love to add their data to my analysis. But you know what? The results of the ones I've found are pretty consistent, across a large range of survey population. And it is, to be quite honest, not the result I was expecting, even as a slasher who does not herself identify as straight, and is used to finding people like her infandom.

[livejournal.com profile] merricatk: [Warning: derailing] One, on writing slash [1/21/10: Post has been edited to contain different content. Original post has been moved and locked.]
And like the name of Joanna Russ's essay, I write them for women. Specifically, I write them for women who are fans of the show who also see the characters as potential lovers. Because here's the thing: what I write about, first and foremost, is TV characters. TV characters who, for the most part, are seen by their creators as straight, but because of the chemistry of the actors, and the limitations of television, could be seen as more than just good friends.

[personal profile] damned_colonial: The itch of queerness, slash, and genre
But I got to thinking about using that sense of "itch" to keep myself honest when writing stuff with queer characters in it, especially ones for whom I can't draw as easily from my own experience (eg. cis male characters). At first I thought yes, that itch is important -- I should be aiming for that, as a writer. But then I had second thoughts, overnight, and wondered whether the itch of queerness is a universal good. Do I (as a queer reader) always appreciate it in fiction I read? How do I feel when I have that itch, as a reader? Is that something I want my readers to feel when they read my stuff?

[personal profile] gloss: I try to look the other way/but there's a mirror behind me
...and again I realize that although I write about same-sex desire, I really can't say -- according to this rubric -- that I slash, can I? Because I'm interested in articulating things (important or mundane) about the characters and (gasp![?]) queer experiences. When I'm interested in exploring (cis, straight) women's lives, then I'll write about one.
I mean, I've known (and been told in multiple ways) for a long time that I'm not writing in the Grand Media-Fannish Transformative Tradition. The prevailing assumption that slash is a genre of romance should have told me as much. But this pretty much confirms it, no?

[livejournal.com profile] ithiliana: Yay Melannen
But all hedging aside, I think that people should stop saying "omg slash is only or mostly by straight women" and ignoring all the asexual, bisexual, pansexual, queer, genderqueer, transgender, transexual, and non-binary individuals writing it. (And by "people" I mean mostly straight cis women and gay men, all or mostly white). Not to mention ignoring the f/f slash.

[livejournal.com profile] prof_pangaea: if it was a real slash story the infant would be james mcavoy's mpreg baby
aaaaaaand of course the comments are filled with "oh god, this parallel is PERFECT because now i don't have to worry about thinking about appropriation anymore. thanks!!" even though all drag is not about or from "gay" culture ("gay" seemingly standing in for modern, western, male,cis , white, homosexual culture, of course) let me just say (more to the people so eagerly jumping at anything that will let them off the hook of having to think about the realities ofintersectionality and appropriation than the original poster, whom i think is wrong, but seems thoughtfully wrong, at least): way to attempt to appropriate even more gay culture for yourselves, slashers. oh, by the way, fuck off.

[livejournal.com profile] logophilos: [Warning: Trans fail, cis-privilege] Drag queens and female authored gay-charactered romance
Our ‘drag’ writing – no matter how accurate or sympathetic – can be used against gay men, even by themselves if they internalise it – to hurt them. Yes, women have strong reasons for using gay male avatars to talk about issues important to them, just as gay men use drag for important reasons and drag queens have played a huge part in the gay rightsmovment. But I think I’m finally getting why those reasons don’t necessarily trump gay men’s objections.

[livejournal.com profile] kindkit: m/m slash and pseudo-lesbian porn [Post now locked]
I'm mostly staying out of the debate about problems of appropriation and exploitation in m/m slash written by straight cisgendered women. (My opinion, if you care: yes, such slash can be, and often is, heteronormative and appropriative; no, it isn't automatically or necessarily so if the author writes conscientiously.)
I did, however, want to comment about the nearly ubiquitous assertion that m/m slash written by straight cisgendered women is the equivalent of the "lesbian" porn produced for (presumably straight, cisgendered) men. I don't think this is the case.

ETA2: I've been shown to be factually wrong about the content of "girl on girl" porn for men, which means I no longer think this post is a very useful contribution to the ongoing discussion.

[personal profile] telesilla: Write ONLY what you know and an unpopular fannish opinion.
This latest round of gay men having fits about women daring to write about gay sex? Feels a lot more like "hey! Keep out of our fort! Didn't you see the big NO GIRLS ALLOWED!!!! sign?" than anything else.
There is something you see in gay male politics and that's guys clinging to male privilege. Why? Because without it, they're second class citizens and that doesn't always sit well with some men. And I really think that's part of what's going on here. This isn't the only dynamic at work in this discussion, but some guys just don't want women all up in their space. To which I say, fine, don't read slash.

[personal profile] elf: We're not sleazy; we're drag queens!
Slash isn't "romance with two men," except for in-some-cases technically. (Like drag queens are not transvestites, except for technically, and in-some-cases.) There are reasons it usespre -existing characters and media tropes. (Reasons for using women's dress designs & adapting them, instead of kilts or sarongs designed for men.) Reasons formpreg and hurt/comfort and aliens-made-them-do-it and WNGWJLEO . (Reasons for huge hats with feathers and jewels, and high heeled boots, and feather boas, and evening gowns and tiaras being worn by men with beards.)

[livejournal.com profile] logophilos: Harmful romantic tropes and commonplaces in female-author gay romance
For gay people, when representations of their selves in the mainstream are so rare, and so rarely positive, fiction matters even more. Thoughtful writers know they should try to get it right. But what I hadn’t really thought about was how getting it right is a lot harder than it looks – and what’s apparently ‘right’ in heterosexual terms, can be damaging, offensive or plain stupid, for gay people.

[personal profile] dingsi: Why the current m/m slash/appropriation debate is making me feel exhausted
...as a gay trans man without ties to a gay community, who also is a slash reader, who found and maintained his queer space(s) mainly in online fandom instead of meatspace organizations,... I feel like I'm being erased or shouted at from [nearly] all sides for Doing It Wrong.

[personal profile] naraht: An argument you will not hear from me
When it comes to Writing the Other (and particularly the current discussion), I am really not convinced by the argument that goes "this story is fantasy, it's not actually about people from group X." It seems to me not so much a justification as the opposite of a justification. Perhaps I'm not postmodern enough.

[personal profile] happydork: Apparently we do exist. Who knew?
And anotherusedpage and I, we thought to ourselves, "Huh. Why is no one mentioning the queer women who enjoy slash?" And then someone did, and we were pleased, and then we thought to ourselves, "Huh. It's weird how there are so few queer slashers (of any gender) out there, when so high a proportion of the slashers we know personally are queer.Hmm. Maybe our social circles are just very self-selecting."

[personal profile] axelrod: [Warning for Comments ] Untitled 1 [of 2 posts discussing privilege and fetishization] [Post now locked]
Um, what? No, Clare, we cannot just sweep all the privilege and potential (and not so potential) problems inherent in a dynamic where privileged people (as well as less-privileged people)fetishize less-privileged people, commercially or otherwise, for an audience which is predominantly other privileged people. Fetishization is not Wrong, but there are things to be said and that won't stop just because you're bored of it.

[personal profile] axelrod: Untitled 2 [of 2 posts discussing privilege and fetishization] [Post now locked]
We cannot just sweep all the privilege and potential (and not so potential) problems inherent in a dynamic where privileged people (as well as less-privileged people)fetishize less-privileged people, commercially or otherwise, for an audience which is predominantly other privileged people. Fetishization is not Wrong, but there are things to be said about it and that won't stop just because you're bored of it.

[personal profile] facetofcathy: Two things
..I want Rodney McKay, or any other fandom genius, to build a machine we can scan a post with and it will show us in fully complex visuals with surround sound and maybe even let us feel what the poster meant when they used words like slash,fandom, stereotype, harmful, exploitive, degrading, fetishizing, woman, man, gay, queer, porn, and on and on.



All blockquotes are pullquotes from the original post. Any text in square brackets [ TEXT ] is entered by a linkspam mod.
As requested by readers of the community, linkspam posts of six or more links with blockquotes will be cut for length.
All comments are screened by default, but currently anyone is allowed to comment.
You can post further links in the comments to this post or send them to our Delicious account.
Additionally, comments/suggestions/feedback can be left at our feedback post.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 02:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] logophilos
Gee, thanks for the editorialisation. I guess it's easier than bringing up the issues to my face.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 10:19 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] logophilos
So you can basically add any comment you want to any entry, without any explanation to either your readers or the author of the entry? So if one of your mods is engaging in grudgewank, they can throw their slanted assessment out and they don't have to explain it?

And I ask you again - why did you add that editorialisation to my entry? No one has raised a question of 'trans fail' to me, and I've seen no comment *other* than yours about that entry being offensive on that ground.

As you are hiding behind a corporate username, if you make a judgment rather than reporting someone else's assessment, then you are providing a 'privilege check'. Just a really useless one.

"Please let us know if you would like your comment to be unscreened"

Yes. This entire conversation.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2010-01-19 10:56 am (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian lifting his sunglasses to reveal his teeth-eyes, a blood splatter added to the bottom left corner (armor)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
No one has raised a question of 'trans fail' to me

Speaking as a trans person who did see problematic aspects in your post: the reason I haven't said anything is that trans issues are highly personal for me and discussions of transphobia / transphobic or cis-centric statements are VERY likely to hurt or upset me. For instance, 9 times out of 10, I see trans people's criticism dismissed or attacked. And/or the assumption that they have to do all the educating, and/or that they have to be super nice and extremely patient about it because the offender "didn't mean it". And so on and so forth. So I'm very cautious about speaking up and pick my battles carefully, something that's not unusual for minorities in general. Please consider this, instead of implying that just because the linkspam mods were the only ones openly mentioning trans fail, it didn't exist.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2010-01-19 01:09 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
You might do best to privilege check. Just because someone who made the comment about the privilege issues was a member of linkspam -who was also commenting in private capacity- doesn't make it wrong: it is dead on, actually. Throwing accusations of grudgewanks -something that seems unlikely because a group consensus is reached for tags- so that you don't have to ponder the content of the individual's comment is pretty faily itself.

And then ranting because nobody took you by the hand to educate you on your privilege? Yeah, it doesn't put you in the best light.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 04:19 am (UTC)
tevere: Jihae, solemn with hint of smile (Default)
From: [personal profile] tevere
Dear linkspam mods: thanks for rounding these up-- it's an invaluable service (to me, anyway) and no doubt personally exhausting for you all. I appreciate your efforts!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 06:22 am (UTC)
kindkit: Man sitting on top of a huge tower of books, reading. (Fandomless--book tower)
From: [personal profile] kindkit
I specifically asked, in the ETA which you quote, that my post not be linked to by link-compilation communities because I'd changed my mind about its usefulness. Please remove the link immediately. Thank you.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 06:28 pm (UTC)
kindkit: A late-Victorian futuristic zeppelin. (Airship)
From: [personal profile] kindkit
Yes, please unscreen my comment.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 07:43 pm (UTC)
jetamors: Yoruichi is really hot (Default)
From: [personal profile] jetamors
The [personal profile] axelrod posts are now locked.

fwiw

Date: 2010-01-18 08:22 pm (UTC)
stoneself: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stoneself
i like the comment thread on this copy of my entry better: http://stoneself.livejournal.com/1478058.html

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-18 11:04 pm (UTC)
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (Default)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
Both entries by axelrod are now locked.
dingsi: The Corinthian smoking a cigarette. He looks down thoughtfully and breathes the smoke out of his nose. (hmm)
From: [personal profile] dingsi
First things first: I'm really fine with you linking to my entry, and think you're doing a great job with this community. What I want to know is: is there a policy in case I find a pulled quote insufficient? Not in the sense of misleading or "omg people could think I'm mean"... it's just that my identity, i.e. that I'm neither writing from the perspective of a cis gay man nor a straight (or queer) cis female slash author -- and apparently "don't exist" in the current debate -- has been crucial for my decision to write that post. I don't feel comfortable with having that part ("as a gay trans man without ties to a gay community, who also is a slash reader ...") omitted, and would like it to be added, if your community rules allow for it.
I don't mind having this comment unscreened.

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