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[livejournal.com profile] shawnam: I can't ignore you any longer!

Anyway, the first thing I wanted to address today is the tempest in a teapot that has been stirred up by the announcement of Realms of Fantasy's Women in Fantasy issue. Doug Cohen, the general editor, announced the issue earlier this week, and apparently a mini-firestorm immediately erupted on the basis of whether or not it's sexist that such an issue even exist. I decided to ignore that, as usual, since I thought it was silly. But then some more serious charges arose around Doug's choice of language in his announcement, and I can't ignore the issue or the internet any longer.


[livejournal.com profile] benpayne: Realms of MANtasy???

What the editor, apparently one Douglas Conan, failed to realise is that women are creatures of wild emotion and oversensitive feelings.

You can't talk down to them. In order to patronise them, you have to patronise them carefully. [Satire]


[livejournal.com profile] girliejones: What, What Did You Say?

Why would you ever refer to professional female writers that way? I've been trying to wrap my head around whether the reverse would ever happen. Noone would ever refer to writers like Jeff Vandermeer or Cory Doctorow or China Mieville as "boy writers". There's even a more stark comparison in the guidelines themselves which asks "Gents" not to apply. Male writers = Gents; Female writers = girls. It's hard for me to get past, clarifications or no.


Christian A Young @ Dimlight Archive: Something to buy in a heartbeat, and something I’m not buying even for a minute

Realms of Fantasy making a visible commitment to do the work, especially in light of their long-standing reputation for gender bias and consistently utilizing cover art targeted at the (heterosexual) male gaze, would be incredibly welcome.

A “girl writers only” issue isn’t going to achieve that. It’s particularly not going to achieve that when the call for submissions makes it sound like they’re setting the bar low, is badly worded, and is full of diminutive language (ladies, girls).


[livejournal.com profile] cassiphone: More on Realms of Fantasy

Let the lesson be this: jokey attitude in submission guidelines? Rarely a good idea. Like it or not, big budget or operating out of your garage, when you set submission guidelines, you are in a position of power & privilege over the people who might be thinking of submitting to you, and taking that lightly is a fast way to offend people, especially when you are attempting to pre-select your work from a limited group of people whether your discrimination is based on age, gender, cultural background, etc.


[livejournal.com profile] ithiliana: claiming X is the FIRST of anything is a very risky claim

Shawna McCarthy posting about the RoF discussion, claiming (again) (incorrectly) that she published the first anthology of women in sf in 1983.

As ide_cyan points out in the first comment, she and Ellen Datlow tried to point out several times that no, there were anthologies earlier.

So Shawna McCarthy has learned something today.


[livejournal.com profile] yuki_onna: A Book of One's Own

You know, just about every time I post anything about writing, but especially if I post about increasing the visibility of women, queer culture, and people of color in literature, I get several of this kind of comment--and yes, I just got ANOTHER one on my Racefail post. "If you want more representations of women/gays/PoC, why don't you write your OWN damn books?" Often accompanied by the cute addendum: "Just tell YOUR story, and don't worry about politics."... My story *is* political.


[livejournal.com profile] stonetable: The Lemonhead Defense: A Plea to Warren Lapine

Warren, criticism of Realms of Fantasy aren’t personal attacks against you and invoking the lemonhead defense against them is eroding the respect equity that the magazine has earned itself over the years. Look at it as an opportunity to interact with the community. Listen to what’s being said. If you choose to respond, do so thoughtfully, even if in disagreement. Stand firm in your beliefs but be open to hearing other points of view. People aren’t asking for special favors, they’re asking for equal treatment, equal representation. Instead of a "Women-only" issue, focus on the “Women in Fantasy” theme and accept submissions from all. Solicit stories from a number of profile authors of all genders. Publish the stories that work.


S.F. Murphy @ Murphy's Pondering Tree: An Interesting Thing Happened on the Way to Oblivion

The fail has manifested itself into Racefail (google that) Boobfail, and the list goes on. Each of these cycles revolves around a charge against an editor or writer, perhaps a publication, of discriminatory conduct. In some cases, these charges have the patina of legitimacy. In other cases, they do not. What is probably most reprehensible about these fail cycles is the veiled or outright accusation of bigoted behavior by members of fail fandom (some of whom are either writers or aspiring writers themselves). Even when these accusations are brought down by other members of the community, there is almost never a retraction of the original charges, never a true apology.


The Crochety Old Fan: FAIL fail

I’ve yet to be convinced that there is a “problem”. I haven’t seen the numbers. How many stories are submitted by female writers vs male writers? How many stories are submitted to the right market by either group? How many good stories by women? If I knew for certain that more stories were submitted by competent female authors than male authors, I’d be certain that there is a problem and I’d be pretty sure that there was some editorial bias going on.


Robert Hoge @ Hogetown: From the "You can please some of the people some of the time" file

There’s not a lot of great data on this out there but I suspect some of the under-representation problem - though far from all - is a flow-through issue. Part of the reason female writers are under-represented in various anthologies and magazines may be that they are under-represented in the number of submissions. And this is where I’m mostly interested in - and supportive of - the move from Realms. Announcing the issue so far in advance should encourage more female writers to submit. Hopefully that might go beyond just one issue but only time will tell.


[livejournal.com profile] girliejones: Update on the wording of the Realm of Fantasy Submission Call

Elsewhere on the internet last night I found myself being stripped down for being offended, told I had a skin so thin it was translucent and that this poor man was never going to win because I was always going to tear strips off him. These are of course the traditional methods for silencing women, being put back in the box. I've come a long way I think in this last year. I don't think I was wrong to express my own reaction and I don't need this reaction to find approval from a man in order for me to be able to feel it. It was also implied that I could not object to the word "girls" in a professional call for a professional submission because my lj handle is "girliejones". It had me thinking about whether I need to defend or explain the idea of taking back and owning words that have been used derogatorily and how the use of words is all about context. But I'm not teaching Feminism 101 anymore.


[livejournal.com profile] amethyst_dragon: Skin So Thin It's Transparent - My Opinion

Hoo Boy! I am probably going to catch some flack from my er...fellow...er...ladies over this post! Over on brendanpodger 's journal he made a post about Realms of Fantasy and some word usage that was made. Apparently the editor used the terms "girls" and "ladies" that had some feminists screaming their lungs out that it was sexist. Then when the poor fellow tried to make an apology, he chose to use the term "ruffled some feathers". I agree with Brendan, at this point, no matter what this gentleman said, he was going to be just wrong.



If you have any links, feel free to leave them in the comments or send them to us at our Delicious account.

For the moment we are not putting our posts behind a cut. Please let us know your thoughts on that.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:14 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
"Well, over the last two years I began to believe that there was no room for someone like me in the community. I am white (Irish-German-English-Dutch for the record). I am male and I am straight."

S.F. Murphy: In the face of the evidence (see Mind-blowing SF), I am OPPRESSED! OPPRESSED I TELL YOU! MORE OPPRESSED THAN YOU!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:21 pm (UTC)
eruthros: Delenn from Babylon 5 with a startled expression and the text "omg!" (Default)
From: [personal profile] eruthros
I would really prefer to see posts behind a cut, myself -- this is a very big post, and it's too much for me to parse on my reading page.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:55 pm (UTC)
happydork: A graph-theoretic tree in the shape of a dog, with the caption "Tree (with bark)" (Default)
From: [personal profile] happydork
+1

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:21 pm (UTC)
feuervogel: photo of the statue of Victory and her chariot on the Brandenburg Gate (Default)
From: [personal profile] feuervogel
My thoughts exactly ;)

Annoyingly, that site is comment by registration only.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:24 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
He also edited to say "real names only" and went on about how *he* used his real name and he didn't see why anybody else wasn't going to.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:33 pm (UTC)
feuervogel: photo of the statue of Victory and her chariot on the Brandenburg Gate (Default)
From: [personal profile] feuervogel
*facepalm*

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:44 pm (UTC)
ext_6167: (Default)
From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
My eyes started glazing over, so I might have missed something, but did he really say that it was only starting in the mid 90s that people started to look at issues of imagery and representation in scifi? and even then, it was only 'internet activists' who did it?

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:59 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
You made me look again, you mean person.
Yup. Apparently Samuel Delany happened to other people.

Around about the middle of the previous decade a community of internet activists within the American Science Fiction Community began to coalesce around issues such as racism, sexism, and other issues of discrimination.

To be entirely fair, you could claim that "of internet activists" modifies the whole thing and that he's only complaining about internet activists. I doubt it.

Also, he hates cities.
> I am not particularly interested in writing stories set in an urban environment, which is a place I view, personally, as a negative. Sure, the historian in me sees the value of cities as producers of revenue, culture, industrial products and as consumers of what the rural outer marches produce but on a personal, gut level, I’d rather be writing this from a kitchen table on a farm rather than the table of a Panera’s at Crown Center in Kansas City.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 04:04 pm (UTC)
ext_6167: (Default)
From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
You made me look again, you mean person.

Oopsie.

Yup. Apparently Samuel Delany happened to other people.

Mmm. And the decades of theory and discussion about imagery and representation in media and popular culture in general apparently didnt happen at all. OK then!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 07:56 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
Theory is a product of liberals and thus does not exist.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-13 05:34 pm (UTC)
yeloson: (Oh NOES)
From: [personal profile] yeloson
Why should writers be expected to read about media and craft? Next thing you'll be telling me engineers need to know math or something :P

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 03:53 pm (UTC)
laughingrat: Evil!Kirk erroneously thinks chicks dig him (Stupid Patriarchy.)
From: [personal profile] laughingrat
I can feel my heart breaking for him, I tells ya. Oh no, that was the Italian sub I ate earlier. Stupid acid reflux.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 07:26 pm (UTC)
glass_icarus: (sott: mortally embarrassing)
From: [personal profile] glass_icarus
Yup, my eyes were rolling right out of my head over there.

OT

Date: 2010-01-12 10:30 pm (UTC)
lian: Klavier Gavin, golden boy (Default)
From: [personal profile] lian
okay, I'm being silly, but I really ought to start amending my cultural heritage, American style, in brackets.

"...for the record, I am white (Lower Frankonian:Main region, Lower Frankonian:Rhön region / undefined German)"

what *is* it with the totally non-apropos brackets??? Newsflash: still white, dude.

Re: OT

Date: 2010-01-13 03:08 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
I *think* the purpose is to say "I'm just as ethnic as you!", entirely ignoring the point that nobody has seriously discriminated against Americans of German heritage since the Second World War, and that overt discrimination against Irish-heritage Americans ended earlier. "No dogs or Irish need apply" is, rightly, a bitter memory, but has nothing to do with the condition of modern Irish-heritage Americans who are, if anything, considered vaguely cool. (See: the bizarre American fixation on St. Patrick's Day.)

Re: OT

Date: 2010-01-13 05:18 pm (UTC)
lian: Klavier Gavin, golden boy (Default)
From: [personal profile] lian
I...thought that might be the case, but dismissed the notion because it seems so idiotic. Shows what I know! >_>;

Re: OT

Date: 2010-01-13 05:32 pm (UTC)

out of context - from The Crotchety Old Fan

Date: 2010-01-12 03:28 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I don't hide behind anonymity (thus the above in the subject, as I do not have an OpenID or Dreamwidth account).

Your selection of a quote from my post of a few days ago slants the entire thing and makes it sound as if I don't think there is a problem - when I have clearly acknowledged in that piece and others that there is.

It's called begging the question. Here's another paragraph from the same post that whomever chose not to quote from:

"The above numbers also reinforce the fact that early on, the genre was a male preserve. But I have no way of knowing how much that may have changed since, say, the mid 70s. How many female SF writers are out there and how many are being rejected for cause (poor stories) and how many for cause (mean old privileged white men)?"

Pseudonyms

Date: 2010-01-13 03:04 pm (UTC)
jonquil: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jonquil
I don't know if you'll read this.

There is a long history of pseudonymity among Internet fans, nearly as old as public access to the Internet itself. The reason is *not* hiding from other fans, not for the most part; it's separating your personal and professional lives. There are many fans who are lawyers, and teachers, and small-town government employees. The idea that a conservative employer may encounter you talking passionately about m/m fiction is not only disturbing but threatening. People have gotten fired.

There is no reason to make your life in the private sphere available in the professional sphere. When I attend a meeting on model trains, my employer can't Google me; when I argue online, my employer sees it all. I'm not "hiding behind a pseudonym"; I'm making sure that when a would-be employer Googles me, the employer sees results about my work, not about my opinions on fanfiction. I damn well know my employers Google me, because non-professional things you can find on the Internet have come up in job interviews.

I may add that I've used the same online pseudonym since at least 1995. It has weight. It has a known personality and a known cluster of friends. Walking away from that persona (which I have no intention of doing) would exact a substantial cost; I'd lose my carefully-accumulated (for better and worse) reputation.

Postscript: When I say "persona", I don't mean "adopted personality". Consistently, when people I know online meet me in person, they report that they recognize the woman they know online, although the real-life person is somewhat worse-edited.

Post-post-script: Case in point, I have just edited this posting twice for grammar and spelling mistakes, as well as to add esprit de l' Internet.
Edited Date: 2010-01-13 03:13 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 04:57 pm (UTC)
princessofgeeks: sam and vala from sg1 drink wine under a cloud of hearts (girltime by magnavox)
From: [personal profile] princessofgeeks
thank you for the cut, and thankyou for all this. this is so important.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 08:04 pm (UTC)
daedala: line drawing of a picture of a bicycle by the awesome Vom Marlowe (Default)
From: [personal profile] daedala
The blockquotes make the post very, very long, so a cut would be good.

But what I liked the linkspams for was a short, concise list of, well, links. I understand why you feel it's important to add more information. But it's really not what I'd subscribed for. My issue could be fixed by having a list of bare links at the top, followed by the cut, followed the links with quotes and warnings and whatnot -- but that's way too much work, and not only am I not asking for it, I don't think you should do it. I find the quotes actively distracting and kind of weirdly unsettling, because it means you all are reading the posts enough to pick out pull quotes and set them up and -- knowing how draining the linkspams can be -- I am not sure I want to put people to that much effort. This is my weird issue, and I don't expect anyone to base community decisions on it! But it is how I feel about the long-edition linkspams.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 08:39 pm (UTC)
susanreads: my avatar, a white woman with brown hair and glasses (Default)
From: [personal profile] susanreads
As long as you have the pullquotes, I think a cut would be a very good idea. This post is more than 3 screens long on my reading page.

I find the quotes useful for telling what's worth reading when I have limited time, but you're making a lot of work for yourselves in doing that. I don't think the benefit to lazy or time-pushed readers is worth the risk of people burning out that much sooner. (This observation doesn't apply to warnings, which are a more crucial feature.)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 10:32 pm (UTC)
lian: Klavier Gavin, golden boy (Default)
From: [personal profile] lian
I appreciate the quotes, but would second a cut. Tho', have to second this don't burn out about the pullquotes :)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 10:44 pm (UTC)
gnatkip: "Gnat" (blah blah ginger)
From: [personal profile] gnatkip
Hi linkspam! Thank you!

I like the pullquotes.

I would prefer a cut, but it's not a big deal as I use a thinger to open cuts right on my reading list anyway.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-12 11:56 pm (UTC)
starlady: a circular well of books (well of books)
From: [personal profile] starlady
I like the pullquotes, but perhaps possibly some of the white space between the link-texts could be elided? I know it's more work for the poster, but might be a possible compromise between cut and no-cut.

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-13 03:10 am (UTC)
wistfuljane: dreamwidth: a way of life (a way of life)
From: [personal profile] wistfuljane
If you like, here's a stopgap measure, go to Custom CSS and put this in the Use embedded CSS box: .entry-wrapper+.journal-linkspam blockquote {margin: -.5em 1em -.5em 1em;} Click save and that should get rid of most of the white space. (Mess around with the -.5em if needed.) That's what I did and it works wonder. =)

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-13 03:23 am (UTC)
starlady: (moon dream)
From: [personal profile] starlady
Oh, that is better. Thanks!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-13 03:24 am (UTC)
wistfuljane: chihiro from sprited away walking toward the train station in the river (Default)
From: [personal profile] wistfuljane
You're welcome!

(no subject)

Date: 2010-01-13 03:05 am (UTC)
wistfuljane: dreamwidth: a way of life (a way of life)
From: [personal profile] wistfuljane
For the moment we are not putting our posts behind a cut. Please let us know your thoughts on that.

I don't know if you've seen these posts with tips on the issue of cutting posts: The answer of whether to cut or uncut newsletter issues and Fun with core2 styles and CSS: filtering posts on your reading page? Basically, you don't need to put your posts under cut on your end. Instead:

1) If your readers prefer to put all posts under cut, ask them go to Custom CSS and input in the Use embedded CSS: .page-read .entry-wrapper+.journal-linkspam { display: none;}
AND/OR
2) If your readers prefer to put long posts under cut, use this as your posting template for long posts: <div class="linkspam-content.long"> [body of linkspam] </div>. Then ask your reader to go to Custom CSS and input in the Use embedded CSS: .linkspam-content.long { display: none !important; }

Hope this is helpful instead of confusing!

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