elf: Another link in the chain (Linkspam)
[personal profile] elf posting in [community profile] linkspam
Note: My impartiality has been called into question, and a question of the comm title has been raised. I never claimed to be unbiased. However, I round up everything I can find on the topic, and while I try not to list signalboost posts, I don't intend to leave out anything substantial. (I'll include signalboosts if they've sparked interesting discussions.)

Advice on this would be welcome.
I do this for my own reasons; if what people want from [community profile] linkspam falls outside of those, I won't be willing/able to participate here. I am willing to tell people how I do this (in insane detail), have other people help, or step down if that's wanted; I'm not willing to change my methods just because someone says "you're doing it wrong!" I might be willing to change them if people convince me I'm doing it wrong; that's not the same thing.

[livejournal.com profile] erastes I’ve just received this charming diatribe in my inbox (Comments turned off.)

[livejournal.com profile] logovol Mi fetiche no es credencial (Post in Spanish)

[livejournal.com profile] kynn cue the wtf chorus

[personal profile] keeva Does linkspam need a new tagline?
[livejournal.com profile] kynn Does linkspam need a new tagline? (Same post; different sites; different comments)

[livejournal.com profile] gwailowrite False Allies in Straight-fail

[livejournal.com profile] flourish Lambda Awards kerfuffle

[livejournal.com profile] spoggly re: Lambda Awards

[livejournal.com profile] angrylemur People are idiots, Tuesday edition

[livejournal.com profile] abigail_roux Oh, what a tangled web we writers weave sometimes.

[livejournal.com profile] sparkindarkness Lambda Bingo!

[livejournal.com profile] sunhawk note one on being a good ally

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 05:11 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] logophilos
"My impartiality has been called into question, and a question of the comm title has been raised. "

I'll be frank - your comments to me and what I've seen elsewhere have ticked me off incredibly. On a personal level, I don't agree with you over this Lambda issue.

But I don't think there has been any obvious bias observable in your link round up, though you're probably limited as anyone would be by where you get to see stuff.

I don't have a problem with your work here, or the retention of the comm title.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:28 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 05:14 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keeva
Just for the record, no one has asked for [personal profile] elf to quit doing what she's chosen to do, although she has threatened to flounce (and delete her recent posts on this topic) because she was asked to change the tagline on the community.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] logophilos
Actually your posts were provocative and clearly challenging her role in the community. You have a right to object to that, but I read the exchange and it's very obvious you want her to stop or go away. Don't be passive aggressive and pretend otherwise. If I had been elf in that position, I'd have reacted exactly the same to your comments/posts.

Even if you started the community, as you are not the owner *now* then you don't have the standing to demand changes in how it's run. That's what stepping away and handing it over *means*.

I know neither of you and call neither of you friends - or enemies. I'm just calling it how I see it.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-09-30 06:03 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] logophilos - Date: 2009-09-30 06:08 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] logophilos - Date: 2009-09-30 06:15 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:29 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] logophilos - Date: 2009-09-30 11:40 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) you're right. i don't care what you have to say.

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:48 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: you're right. i don't care what you have to say.

From: [personal profile] logophilos - Date: 2009-09-30 01:22 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: you're right. i don't care what you have to say.

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 06:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: you're right. i don't care what you have to say.

From: [personal profile] softestbullet - Date: 2009-10-01 05:32 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:17 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) the way to miss the point

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 06:56 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 05:36 am (UTC)
kathmandu: Close-up of pussywillow catkins. (Default)
From: [personal profile] kathmandu
I am impressed with Elf's hard work. The whole reason this comm was started was that the effort of searching and archiving was burning out individuals who tried it.

The roundup posts are mostly just links, with occasional clarifying notes; I don't see how there could be bias except in the selection of posts. And if other people see that relevant posts are being left out, they can contribute a roundup themselves.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 06:10 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keeva
...I don't see how there could be bias except in the selection of posts.

Note the exchange here, in which I am critical of the bias displayed in selectively quoting (and bolding) only the part of the rules which -- out of context -- make LLF look dreadful, and [personal profile] elf's tacit admission (by updating the post with more context, such as LLF's purpose) that her own bias had influenced how she had reported the incident.

Such selective quoting of only "one side's" arguments really does lead casual readers to be more willing to believe absolute untruths such as "they changed the rules after the submission date" or "who determines who is LGBT enough?" (both of which [personal profile] elf readily ate up and believed and propagated) -- when a simple quote of those portions of the entry rules would have done a lot of benefit to informed discourse.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] cesy - Date: 2009-09-30 10:50 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] cesy - Date: 2009-09-30 02:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:19 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 05:49 am (UTC)
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)
From: [personal profile] hl
As I offered in the other post, if there's a real fear of bias in the link round up, and (I add now) offensive posts marking, I volunteer to help with either or both.

I haven't perceived bias in the link round up myself, but I'm only following the discussion through here, so I wouldn't know (perhaps it would help to know that I reached the diametrically opposite position to elf's reading the posts linked in this comm).

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] hl - Date: 2009-09-30 01:36 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 09:40 am (UTC)
naraht: (Default)
From: [personal profile] naraht
Just want to say, thanks for volunteering! It sounds like [personal profile] elf has got your training in hand but if you have any questions or need help, let me know.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] hl - Date: 2009-09-30 01:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 06:35 am (UTC)
maevele: (Default)
From: [personal profile] maevele
I do feel as though I have seen a good number of posts, just on my flist, defending LLF's side that have not actually made it into the linkspams, that I saw. Which makes me consider the possibility that the side criticisizing the LLF is being over represented in the linkspam roundups, perhaps subconsciously because of your bias towards that side. or just that my Flist is dramatically on the LLF's side. either way, I could send you the links from the side I am seeing more f.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 11:30 am (UTC)
stoneself: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stoneself
yeah because an anti-oppression comm needs more support for privilege.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] torachan - Date: 2009-09-30 11:43 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 11:52 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] maevele - Date: 2009-09-30 09:03 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 08:08 am (UTC)
nicki: (Default)
From: [personal profile] nicki
Personally I think you are doing a fabulous job. And, from my observation, links left in the comments get included on the link-post. One person cannot find every post on a particular controversy (especially if their part of the blogosphere leans in one direction on a particular issue), so IMO, people who are worried about the links being onesided should post links in the comments as well.

Also, I have only been following this through the linkspam and only those not on LJ, because I can't access LJ at work, and even with that very limited selection I still came across the information on what the submission date was.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 09:38 am (UTC)
naraht: Star cluster (nasa-Star Cluster)
From: [personal profile] naraht
My feelings on the matter...

From experience I know that linkspamming is a difficult job. One of the things that makes it especially difficult is the feeling that you have to be "on" all the time as the public face of the community, and the knowledge that the community itself may be judged by your own personal views. I think it's a good thing, as far as practicable, to try to make a distinction between the roles. It would be impossible to ask linkspammers never to express their personal views on the questions at issue.

When it comes to the question under discussion here, I disagree with [personal profile] elf. I suspect many if not most of the people reading these posts feel similarly. I don't, however, expect her to be always on the "right" side of any given issue. I don't expect myself to always be right. Or even to be able to identify which side of a debate is the more deserving.

What I do think is that [personal profile] elf has been doing a sterling job collecting and posting links. Whatever you think of what she's doing on her own time, I think and hope that the community itself is forwarding anti-oppression work by functioning as a clearing-house for discussion.

It should go without saying that we always welcome new linkspammers. It would be better for the burden to rest on more shoulders and that way it would be less easy to confuse personal views with the stance of the community. I'm willing to put a bit of time into training people, so anyone can comment or PM me if interested.

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 11:10 am (UTC)
supermouse: Simple blue linedrawing of a stylised superhero mouse facing left (Default)
From: [personal profile] supermouse
I've tried collecting links on a subject, just for a single post here and there. It's really hard work. I really value linkspam for saving me an awful lot of searching and trying to remember which links I've visited already.

(frozen) red herring alert

Date: 2009-09-30 11:10 am (UTC)
stoneself: (Default)
From: [personal profile] stoneself
hey. the problem here isn't about bias. total red herring.

repeat not about bias.

the problem is that elf is supporting straight privilege. which is totally counter to the point of this community in the first place.

Edited Date: 2009-09-30 11:21 am (UTC)

(frozen) re: red herring alert

Date: 2009-09-30 01:45 pm (UTC)
hl: Drawing of Ada Lovelace as a young child, reading a Calculus book (Default)
From: [personal profile] hl
OK, totally fell for that red herring.

How do you propose the community is fixed? (I'm not saying it just to say it; I'm about to get involved in collecting the links, so...)

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

From: [personal profile] hl - Date: 2009-09-30 01:51 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 06:59 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

From: [personal profile] hl - Date: 2009-09-30 11:10 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] angelikitten - Date: 2009-09-30 02:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] angelikitten - Date: 2009-09-30 02:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] hl - Date: 2009-09-30 02:25 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] angelikitten - Date: 2009-09-30 02:57 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

Date: 2009-09-30 01:51 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] rootedinsong
Strongly seconded.

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 06:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: red herring alert

From: [personal profile] naatz - Date: 2009-09-30 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 12:44 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] logophilos
Sparkindarkness has put together a bingo card for LamdaFail
http://sparkindarkness.livejournal.com/253282.html

(frozen) Something for other straight cis people to consider

Date: 2009-09-30 01:02 pm (UTC)
sqbr: (duty calls)
From: [personal profile] sqbr
As a straight cis person who strongly disagrees with elf's opinion on the awards but has appreciated the linkspam and thinks she's, afaict, been doing a pretty good job(*)...I'm uncomfortable with, and want to highlight, the fact that, based on the small sample of this post, the only people who disagree with elf on the awards(**) but think the linkspams she's been doing are still an unambiguously good thing seem to be straight and cis (I think? I do not mean to mischaracterise anyone here, and apologies if I am) while all the LGBT people who disagree with her opinion on the awards do have a problem with the way she's running the linkspam (either on principle or in the specifics)

So..yeah. There's been some very good posts in this roundup about the way straight people think we know what's best for LGBT folk and rate our own convenience and experience above theirs, and that this is a bad thing.

Anyway, something I do feel comfortable weighing in on: perhaps a general call for volunteers? Maybe changing the setup to make it easier for people to share the load? I don't know if these are helpful suggestions. I must admit I'm not going to be able to help out in any case, but I really appreciate this comm (and the work elf and everyone else have done for it) and hope it can continue without making anyone feel like it's adding to their oppression (becuase that does seem pretty contrary to it's purpose).

(*)EDIT: I don't mean to imply that I disagree with the complaints keeva etc are making. But I can't quite get my head around them completely yet.
(**)People who agree being much less likely to have a problem with her doing the linkspam
Edited Date: 2009-09-30 01:10 pm (UTC)

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 01:50 pm (UTC)
angelikitten: Cat with a halo (Default)
From: [personal profile] angelikitten
Weirdly enough, I was thinking that it was mainly LGBT people disagreeing, but didn't feel comfortable saying what that implies because I'm not straight - I'm used to people dismissing what I have to say on these things.

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-09-30 02:04 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] angelikitten - Date: 2009-09-30 03:06 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-10-01 06:51 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] angelikitten - Date: 2009-10-01 07:50 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) I apolgise for poor self expression and resorting to set theory

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-09-30 02:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: I apolgise for poor self expression and resorting to set theory

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-10-01 07:03 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Something for other straight cis people to consider

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 07:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) For the record: a past argument with elf

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-09-30 09:31 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: For the record: a past argument with elf

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-10-01 07:23 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Something for other straight cis people to consider

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2009-09-30 10:09 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Since I didn't want to mix criticism with apology

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-10-01 07:15 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Since I didn't want to mix criticism with apology

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-10-01 07:58 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Since I didn't want to mix criticism with apology

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-10-01 07:59 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Since I didn't want to mix criticism with apology

From: [personal profile] wildeabandon - Date: 2009-10-01 08:26 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Something for other straight cis people to consider

From: [personal profile] wildeabandon - Date: 2009-09-30 03:16 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: Something for other straight cis people to consider

From: [personal profile] sqbr - Date: 2009-10-01 07:03 am (UTC) - Expand
(screened comment)

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 04:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keeva
Oh, HI, it's YOU again.

Attacking from anonymity with personal insults instead of addressing the points being raised, AGAIN, are you?

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 07:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) re: and this was unscreened why?

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-09-30 07:21 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] gloss - Date: 2009-09-30 07:40 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] riseupwithfists - Date: 2009-09-30 09:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2009-10-01 12:45 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) i change my mind

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-10-01 12:56 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] riseupwithfists - Date: 2009-10-01 01:20 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

From: [personal profile] riseupwithfists - Date: 2009-10-01 01:26 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) ya know?

From: [personal profile] stoneself - Date: 2009-09-30 08:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Get a clue yourself.

From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2009-09-30 08:29 pm (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) Re: ya know?

From: [personal profile] wildeabandon - Date: 2009-10-01 08:59 am (UTC) - Expand

(frozen) (no subject)

Date: 2009-09-30 08:41 pm (UTC)
dont_think_twice: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dont_think_twice
I haven't taken the time to read through all the comments yet, but I'd say that having more volunteers would probably be a good thing as people may know of posts that aren't showing up in searches (I can't volunteer myself though, since I'm trying to cut back on my internet time for various reasons)

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-01 08:46 pm (UTC)
amadi: A stylized photo of two calla lily flowers (Default)
From: [personal profile] amadi
I'm dreadfully curious who froze comments on this post, and why. If direct personal attacks by anonymous passersby are acceptable, why would any contentious thread need to be frozen?

(no subject)

Date: 2009-10-01 08:49 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keeva
Kind of curious too. I think that freezing comments now -- with the most current post also without comments -- is probably a bad idea from an administrative standpoint.

(no subject)

From: [personal profile] keeva - Date: 2009-10-01 08:52 pm (UTC) - Expand

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